Community Development Banking List
01-12-2009, 09:36 AM
Original message from: jtwebb@auracom.com
A very interesting perspective. In workshops I often ask groups of
managers and/or co-op leaders if it is true that people have to move
where the jobs are. Most hands go up. A bit later I ask if a healthy
family and community are really important to a 'good life'. Even more
hands go up. I then remind them that earlier they indicated that we
have to tear families and communities apart to have a 'healthy' investor
owned economy (sort of a human sacrifice). Would this be true of a
healthy co-operative economy? If our economy were dominated by worker
and consumer and producer co-operatives - including credit unions in the
consumer co-ops group - would we be tearing families and communities
apart to go where the jobs are or bringing jobs to where the people
are? A look at Mondragon or Northern Italy tells us a co-operative
economy is possible and performs as well or better than an investor
owned economy in terms of efficiency and innovation.
As we watch the spirit of greed pay hundreds of millions in compensation
to the CEO of Lehmans and the stock market acting like a yo yo is it not
time to believe that there can not only be an alternative but that we
cannot afford to pass it up. Is it doable? There are 245,000 co-ops in
Europe with an output equal to the GNP of Canada, the 9th largest in the
world. Perhaps the time has come.
Tom Webb
Garrett Wyse wrote:
Just another thought, perhaps too culturally specific and not very
relevant here.
I can only speak from an Irish perspective, but up until the property
bubble (which we can still here the bursting sound of), the average
Irish person bought one house, ever, and all mortgages up to 10 year
ago were for 20 years maximum, and with a large deposit to boot. So
you bought your home, and likely stayed there for the rest of your
life (or until all family and friends have moved or died, or until the
house became too much for an elderly couple, the children took it over
and lived in it etc.).
The idea of moving every five years is anathema to an average Irish
person, why move from social, familial, community support?
The benefits of having all these support structures in place are
invaluable, ask anyone who had their in-laws and out-laws helping them
with kids etc. and then having moved and having paid strangers doing
everything for you.
A home perhaps could/should be valued not when you sell it, but by
trying to place a value on what it would be to replace it, complete
with social, familial support structures et al.
Dell announced the closer of a 1, 900 man plant in an Irish city
yesterday, and the greatest fear (as unfortunately we Irish are all
too familiar with) is that families will have to move with the chaos
that this entails for family, frineds and community.
Personally we moved when I was a child, only a hundred miles, but I
swore then that where we moved to was going to be my home and I would
have a building there that would be my home within my home town, and
thankfully that has come to pass.
My 'home' is now worth financially quite a bit, and mortgage free (it
was my parents and they have moved on), so I have the benefit of their
years of hard work (they saved, they insured against loss, they earned
the right to get in dept to buy a home and worked hard all thier lives
to pay for it), I have a mortgage free property which is my home and
the place where my family shall hopefully be reared, and perhaps even
another generation after that, who knows.
Most of my friends had to emigrate in the 1980's and 1990's (I would
equate this with the average US person moving city from say Austin to
Phillly), and most made it back home when we boomed a few years back,
and boys are we all happy they made it back, to family, friends and
the community where they were born, reared and raised.
So stop running in circles perhaps and take REAL stock, and enjoy.
I do a lot of work in developing countries and one way I have of
looking at us (developed world inhabitants) is that relatively
speaking we have won, all we have to do is figure out how to collect
and enjoy the prize, which should be the rest of our lives, and the
happy lives of our families.
I do not mean this to be sentimental, but rather as clear an
understanding of what home means to me, and money is a very small part
of the equation, and trading up my home seems like a rather alien
concept (unless I havppen to have loads of kids and run out of room
for us all, but frankly that is a problem I would love to have),
Enjoy,
Garrett
2009/1/8 AJ Poulin <AJ@absnetwork.com <mailto:AJ@absnetwork.com>>
Two thoughts:
1. Americans are mobile.
On average, Americans move every 5 years.
Most mortgages are 30 years.
2. A home is 'worth' something when you sell it for that
amount.
If you sell it, then you don't have a home.
If you then buy another home, you now have a new 30 year debt.
Lather. Rinse. Repeat.
Summary: Only a fraction of mortgage holders will ever
pay off their mortgage.
The debt is intrinsic and accepted.
Credit card culture vs. cash culture.
A.J. Poulin
National Sales Manager (800)833-3343 x 118
ABS_EMAIL_SIG <http://www.themortgageoffice.com/> ('http://www.themortgageoffice.com/>')
-----Original Message-----
From: bounce-3445191-4990534@list.cornell.edu
<mailto:bounce-3445191-4990534@list.cornell.edu>
[mailto:bounce-3445191-4990534@list.cornell.edu
<mailto:bounce-3445191-4990534@list.cornell.edu>] On Behalf Of
Meissner, Joseph
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 8:32 AM
To: Edward Dodson; Linda Salmonson; Jamie Zimmerman;
communitydevelopmentbanking-l@cornell.edu
<mailto:communitydevelopmentbanking-l@cornell.edu>
Subject: RE: Comment on Savings and Asset Building idea a finalist
in Better World Campaign Contest
TO Everyone
FROM Joseph Meissner
Good thought-provoking comments from everyone. I was talking to some
women of Asian background. They see things quite differently,
including
on building up assets. Essential to their ideas are that in the
household, the woman controls all money including the spending.
She is
quite conservative in her management of money. Also she sees the male
as a resource, as a sort of pack-animal that is to be kept in check.
The main is provided a small allowance on Monday morning. On Saturday
he must relate how he spent it. If he did not spend it wisely,
then no
more allowance. We Westerners may joke about Wife Number One, and
Wife
Number Two, etc., but there is far more to this than just
imbalances in
male hormones.
What does all this have to do with our discussion? I am wondering
whether we start off all wrong in our views about asset-building. We
start off the money and perhaps we are starting in the wrong place
when
we should start off with the basic family structure.
Take care.
-----Original Message-----
From: Edward Dodson [mailto:ejdodson@comcast.net
<mailto:ejdodson@comcast.net>]
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 10:52 AM
To: 'Linda Salmonson'; Meissner, Joseph; 'Jamie Zimmerman';
communitydevelopmentbanking-l@cornell.edu
<mailto:communitydevelopmentbanking-l@cornell.edu>
Subject: RE: Comment on Savings and Asset Building idea a finalist in
Better World Campaign Contest
Linda Salmonson wrote:
... In those days, you bought a house with the intention of living it
for a
long time, repaid the mortgage as a means of building assets and
didn't
dwell on the possibility that its value would rise significantly. The
key
was ownership--free and clear--paying the mortgage created the
asset--wholly
owned. The breakdown is the market's change in attitude, turning the
home
into a commodity to be leveraged or traded-up as the family's assets
grew.
Call me naive or nostalgic, but I think we just have let our
priorities
get
out of place and it has contributed greatly to the current havoc.
Ed Dodson here:
What you say is undoubtedly quite true. Debt is no longer considered
something to take on only as a last resort.
Why people take on so much debt beyond what is reasonable and without
giving
sufficient consideration to what would happen in the event of a
loss of
income indicates the great need for financial literacy education
beginning
in the secondary schools (perhaps even earlier).
The data on individual bankruptcies clearly indicates that the group
most
affected by financial problems are female heads-of-household. We
should
not
be surprised that this is the case. Raising children on one income and
meeting every-rising housing related expenses is next to impossible,
even
when income is steady and the person effectively manages that income,
carrying as little debt as possible to meet necessary expenses.
For more than half of all households in the U.S., the rising cost of
living
has far outpaced household income. This leaves little disposable
income
available to savings or even emergencies. Hence, the increasing
dependency
on equity credit lines, debt consolidation loans, and the
vulnerability
of
financially-stressed families to marketing by high cost (and too often
predatory) lenders.
The hard issue for us to face as a society is where individual
responsibility ends and the need for systemic changes is required. I
have
already expressed my views on the subject. Changes in the way
government
raises revenue would go a long way toward bringing the problems under
control.
CDB list instructions http://www.runonthebank.net/cdblist.htm ('http://www.runonthebank.net/cdblist.htm')
--
Garrett Wyse
00-353-87-6536002
CDB list instructions http://www.runonthebank.net/cdblist.htm ('http://www.runonthebank.net/cdblist.htm')
--
J Tom Webb, Program Manager
Master of Management -- Co-operatives and Credit Unions
902 863 0678 -- Antigonish
902 496 8170 -- Saint Mary's
902 624 9048 -- Cottage Office
www.mmccu.coop
"Be the change you want in the world" Ghandi
A very interesting perspective. In workshops I often ask groups of
managers and/or co-op leaders if it is true that people have to move
where the jobs are. Most hands go up. A bit later I ask if a healthy
family and community are really important to a 'good life'. Even more
hands go up. I then remind them that earlier they indicated that we
have to tear families and communities apart to have a 'healthy' investor
owned economy (sort of a human sacrifice). Would this be true of a
healthy co-operative economy? If our economy were dominated by worker
and consumer and producer co-operatives - including credit unions in the
consumer co-ops group - would we be tearing families and communities
apart to go where the jobs are or bringing jobs to where the people
are? A look at Mondragon or Northern Italy tells us a co-operative
economy is possible and performs as well or better than an investor
owned economy in terms of efficiency and innovation.
As we watch the spirit of greed pay hundreds of millions in compensation
to the CEO of Lehmans and the stock market acting like a yo yo is it not
time to believe that there can not only be an alternative but that we
cannot afford to pass it up. Is it doable? There are 245,000 co-ops in
Europe with an output equal to the GNP of Canada, the 9th largest in the
world. Perhaps the time has come.
Tom Webb
Garrett Wyse wrote:
Just another thought, perhaps too culturally specific and not very
relevant here.
I can only speak from an Irish perspective, but up until the property
bubble (which we can still here the bursting sound of), the average
Irish person bought one house, ever, and all mortgages up to 10 year
ago were for 20 years maximum, and with a large deposit to boot. So
you bought your home, and likely stayed there for the rest of your
life (or until all family and friends have moved or died, or until the
house became too much for an elderly couple, the children took it over
and lived in it etc.).
The idea of moving every five years is anathema to an average Irish
person, why move from social, familial, community support?
The benefits of having all these support structures in place are
invaluable, ask anyone who had their in-laws and out-laws helping them
with kids etc. and then having moved and having paid strangers doing
everything for you.
A home perhaps could/should be valued not when you sell it, but by
trying to place a value on what it would be to replace it, complete
with social, familial support structures et al.
Dell announced the closer of a 1, 900 man plant in an Irish city
yesterday, and the greatest fear (as unfortunately we Irish are all
too familiar with) is that families will have to move with the chaos
that this entails for family, frineds and community.
Personally we moved when I was a child, only a hundred miles, but I
swore then that where we moved to was going to be my home and I would
have a building there that would be my home within my home town, and
thankfully that has come to pass.
My 'home' is now worth financially quite a bit, and mortgage free (it
was my parents and they have moved on), so I have the benefit of their
years of hard work (they saved, they insured against loss, they earned
the right to get in dept to buy a home and worked hard all thier lives
to pay for it), I have a mortgage free property which is my home and
the place where my family shall hopefully be reared, and perhaps even
another generation after that, who knows.
Most of my friends had to emigrate in the 1980's and 1990's (I would
equate this with the average US person moving city from say Austin to
Phillly), and most made it back home when we boomed a few years back,
and boys are we all happy they made it back, to family, friends and
the community where they were born, reared and raised.
So stop running in circles perhaps and take REAL stock, and enjoy.
I do a lot of work in developing countries and one way I have of
looking at us (developed world inhabitants) is that relatively
speaking we have won, all we have to do is figure out how to collect
and enjoy the prize, which should be the rest of our lives, and the
happy lives of our families.
I do not mean this to be sentimental, but rather as clear an
understanding of what home means to me, and money is a very small part
of the equation, and trading up my home seems like a rather alien
concept (unless I havppen to have loads of kids and run out of room
for us all, but frankly that is a problem I would love to have),
Enjoy,
Garrett
2009/1/8 AJ Poulin <AJ@absnetwork.com <mailto:AJ@absnetwork.com>>
Two thoughts:
1. Americans are mobile.
On average, Americans move every 5 years.
Most mortgages are 30 years.
2. A home is 'worth' something when you sell it for that
amount.
If you sell it, then you don't have a home.
If you then buy another home, you now have a new 30 year debt.
Lather. Rinse. Repeat.
Summary: Only a fraction of mortgage holders will ever
pay off their mortgage.
The debt is intrinsic and accepted.
Credit card culture vs. cash culture.
A.J. Poulin
National Sales Manager (800)833-3343 x 118
ABS_EMAIL_SIG <http://www.themortgageoffice.com/> ('http://www.themortgageoffice.com/>')
-----Original Message-----
From: bounce-3445191-4990534@list.cornell.edu
<mailto:bounce-3445191-4990534@list.cornell.edu>
[mailto:bounce-3445191-4990534@list.cornell.edu
<mailto:bounce-3445191-4990534@list.cornell.edu>] On Behalf Of
Meissner, Joseph
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 8:32 AM
To: Edward Dodson; Linda Salmonson; Jamie Zimmerman;
communitydevelopmentbanking-l@cornell.edu
<mailto:communitydevelopmentbanking-l@cornell.edu>
Subject: RE: Comment on Savings and Asset Building idea a finalist
in Better World Campaign Contest
TO Everyone
FROM Joseph Meissner
Good thought-provoking comments from everyone. I was talking to some
women of Asian background. They see things quite differently,
including
on building up assets. Essential to their ideas are that in the
household, the woman controls all money including the spending.
She is
quite conservative in her management of money. Also she sees the male
as a resource, as a sort of pack-animal that is to be kept in check.
The main is provided a small allowance on Monday morning. On Saturday
he must relate how he spent it. If he did not spend it wisely,
then no
more allowance. We Westerners may joke about Wife Number One, and
Wife
Number Two, etc., but there is far more to this than just
imbalances in
male hormones.
What does all this have to do with our discussion? I am wondering
whether we start off all wrong in our views about asset-building. We
start off the money and perhaps we are starting in the wrong place
when
we should start off with the basic family structure.
Take care.
-----Original Message-----
From: Edward Dodson [mailto:ejdodson@comcast.net
<mailto:ejdodson@comcast.net>]
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 10:52 AM
To: 'Linda Salmonson'; Meissner, Joseph; 'Jamie Zimmerman';
communitydevelopmentbanking-l@cornell.edu
<mailto:communitydevelopmentbanking-l@cornell.edu>
Subject: RE: Comment on Savings and Asset Building idea a finalist in
Better World Campaign Contest
Linda Salmonson wrote:
... In those days, you bought a house with the intention of living it
for a
long time, repaid the mortgage as a means of building assets and
didn't
dwell on the possibility that its value would rise significantly. The
key
was ownership--free and clear--paying the mortgage created the
asset--wholly
owned. The breakdown is the market's change in attitude, turning the
home
into a commodity to be leveraged or traded-up as the family's assets
grew.
Call me naive or nostalgic, but I think we just have let our
priorities
get
out of place and it has contributed greatly to the current havoc.
Ed Dodson here:
What you say is undoubtedly quite true. Debt is no longer considered
something to take on only as a last resort.
Why people take on so much debt beyond what is reasonable and without
giving
sufficient consideration to what would happen in the event of a
loss of
income indicates the great need for financial literacy education
beginning
in the secondary schools (perhaps even earlier).
The data on individual bankruptcies clearly indicates that the group
most
affected by financial problems are female heads-of-household. We
should
not
be surprised that this is the case. Raising children on one income and
meeting every-rising housing related expenses is next to impossible,
even
when income is steady and the person effectively manages that income,
carrying as little debt as possible to meet necessary expenses.
For more than half of all households in the U.S., the rising cost of
living
has far outpaced household income. This leaves little disposable
income
available to savings or even emergencies. Hence, the increasing
dependency
on equity credit lines, debt consolidation loans, and the
vulnerability
of
financially-stressed families to marketing by high cost (and too often
predatory) lenders.
The hard issue for us to face as a society is where individual
responsibility ends and the need for systemic changes is required. I
have
already expressed my views on the subject. Changes in the way
government
raises revenue would go a long way toward bringing the problems under
control.
CDB list instructions http://www.runonthebank.net/cdblist.htm ('http://www.runonthebank.net/cdblist.htm')
--
Garrett Wyse
00-353-87-6536002
CDB list instructions http://www.runonthebank.net/cdblist.htm ('http://www.runonthebank.net/cdblist.htm')
--
J Tom Webb, Program Manager
Master of Management -- Co-operatives and Credit Unions
902 863 0678 -- Antigonish
902 496 8170 -- Saint Mary's
902 624 9048 -- Cottage Office
www.mmccu.coop
"Be the change you want in the world" Ghandi